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Meeting dishonest ex-supervisors at large international conference — Should one speak out?
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I have returned to my country after one negative experience as a postdoc in China.
In short, I was hired based on false salary & funding expectations supported by shady vague contracts written in Chinese. I stayed until the end as to escape a raging crisis at home.
Now I am back home, among long-date colleagues & collaborators. A large international conference in our field of study starts today. The very same PIs who lured me into their trap are coming, now in my country, actively seeking for new candidates. Surely they expect me to treat them politely, coldly at best. These people owe me a lot of money, plus stolen time and project ideas.
I think they expect me to stay nice and quiet for fear of getting bad recommendations and in the hopes of perhaps getting paid/compensated in the future. The culture here is certainly different from what they expect. In just few hours I will meet them at the conference hall, for the opening.
I am revolted. At least in my country, LoRs are not required for getting jobs, and I do not think they're too influential outside of their institutions.
Should I openly expose them? Or would that just label me as some begrudged nuthead?
There is one special roundtable about work ethics included, and I am thinking of approaching the organisation about this. Any suggestions, ideas on this, would be appreciated.
P.S. This is not in the US.
ethics postdocs emotional-responses china scams
asked 9 hours ago
Scientist
4,6001944
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
11
down vote
favorite
I have returned to my country after one negative experience as a postdoc in China.
In short, I was hired based on false salary & funding expectations supported by shady vague contracts written in Chinese. I stayed until the end as to escape a raging crisis at home.
Now I am back home, among long-date colleagues & collaborators. A large international conference in our field of study starts today. The very same PIs who lured me into their trap are coming, now in my country, actively seeking for new candidates. Surely they expect me to treat them politely, coldly at best. These people owe me a lot of money, plus stolen time and project ideas.
I think they expect me to stay nice and quiet for fear of getting bad recommendations and in the hopes of perhaps getting paid/compensated in the future. The culture here is certainly different from what they expect. In just few hours I will meet them at the conference hall, for the opening.
I am revolted. At least in my country, LoRs are not required for getting jobs, and I do not think they're too influential outside of their institutions.
Should I openly expose them? Or would that just label me as some begrudged nuthead?
There is one special roundtable about work ethics included, and I am thinking of approaching the organisation about this. Any suggestions, ideas on this, would be appreciated.
P.S. This is not in the US.
ethics postdocs emotional-responses china scams
asked 9 hours ago
Scientist
4,6001944
10
Can you say what you mean by "openly expose"? I'm imagining something like standing up in a crowded room, pointing and shouting "There sits the man who has wronged me!" like a scene from a Gothic novel. That certainly isn't something I'd advise.
– Nate Eldredge
8 hours ago
2
@NateEldredge Yeah, as much as I'd love living such a moment that wouldn't be a wise plan. However I might: (i) not sake hands and smile back; (ii) ask at the end of the relevant talk why isn't my contribution acknowledged; (iii) approach my other friends in the open stating they just scammed off salary, funding, data. No need to shout and wear a black mantle there. I am considering contacting a local reporter (I exposed scientific misconduct in local newspapers before).
– Scientist
8 hours ago
4
"This is not in the US" it would be more helpful to know where it is, than where it isn't. What is acceptable one place may not be in another, even in bordering countries.
– user94036
7 hours ago
1
@user94036 Sorry I understand, but am keeping this general to avoid making the exposure already here, and also to support others in a similar situation elsewhere, who come across this discussion. By emphasizing "not US" I imply that a lawsuit are not the default course of action in resolving disputes locally, which I think is the case for most of the world. Also I think most active respondents are in the US and think according with local principles/standards, so I leave this as a reminder.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
3
I understand your emotions and urge to prevent others for entering such trap. I fully agree with Buffy on this one : “If you want to play power politics make sure that you have the power first.â€Â. You do not have that power, yet. However, I just want to mention that by posting this question, you already reached potential candidates. You are not completely powerless. In my view, the best ‘revenge’ is not to fight them openly but to excell in your career. Warn you peers discretely.
– Alice
5 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
11
down vote
favorite
up vote
11
down vote
favorite
I have returned to my country after one negative experience as a postdoc in China.
In short, I was hired based on false salary & funding expectations supported by shady vague contracts written in Chinese. I stayed until the end as to escape a raging crisis at home.
Now I am back home, among long-date colleagues & collaborators. A large international conference in our field of study starts today. The very same PIs who lured me into their trap are coming, now in my country, actively seeking for new candidates. Surely they expect me to treat them politely, coldly at best. These people owe me a lot of money, plus stolen time and project ideas.
I think they expect me to stay nice and quiet for fear of getting bad recommendations and in the hopes of perhaps getting paid/compensated in the future. The culture here is certainly different from what they expect. In just few hours I will meet them at the conference hall, for the opening.
I am revolted. At least in my country, LoRs are not required for getting jobs, and I do not think they're too influential outside of their institutions.
Should I openly expose them? Or would that just label me as some begrudged nuthead?
There is one special roundtable about work ethics included, and I am thinking of approaching the organisation about this. Any suggestions, ideas on this, would be appreciated.
P.S. This is not in the US.
ethics postdocs emotional-responses china scams
asked 9 hours ago
Scientist
4,6001944
I have returned to my country after one negative experience as a postdoc in China.
In short, I was hired based on false salary & funding expectations supported by shady vague contracts written in Chinese. I stayed until the end as to escape a raging crisis at home.
Now I am back home, among long-date colleagues & collaborators. A large international conference in our field of study starts today. The very same PIs who lured me into their trap are coming, now in my country, actively seeking for new candidates. Surely they expect me to treat them politely, coldly at best. These people owe me a lot of money, plus stolen time and project ideas.
I think they expect me to stay nice and quiet for fear of getting bad recommendations and in the hopes of perhaps getting paid/compensated in the future. The culture here is certainly different from what they expect. In just few hours I will meet them at the conference hall, for the opening.
I am revolted. At least in my country, LoRs are not required for getting jobs, and I do not think they're too influential outside of their institutions.
Should I openly expose them? Or would that just label me as some begrudged nuthead?
There is one special roundtable about work ethics included, and I am thinking of approaching the organisation about this. Any suggestions, ideas on this, would be appreciated.
P.S. This is not in the US.
ethics postdocs emotional-responses china scams
asked 9 hours ago
Scientist
4,6001944
asked 9 hours ago
Scientist
4,6001944
asked 9 hours ago
Scientist
4,6001944
asked 9 hours ago
Scientist
4,6001944
4,6001944
10
Can you say what you mean by "openly expose"? I'm imagining something like standing up in a crowded room, pointing and shouting "There sits the man who has wronged me!" like a scene from a Gothic novel. That certainly isn't something I'd advise.
– Nate Eldredge
8 hours ago
2
@NateEldredge Yeah, as much as I'd love living such a moment that wouldn't be a wise plan. However I might: (i) not sake hands and smile back; (ii) ask at the end of the relevant talk why isn't my contribution acknowledged; (iii) approach my other friends in the open stating they just scammed off salary, funding, data. No need to shout and wear a black mantle there. I am considering contacting a local reporter (I exposed scientific misconduct in local newspapers before).
– Scientist
8 hours ago
4
"This is not in the US" it would be more helpful to know where it is, than where it isn't. What is acceptable one place may not be in another, even in bordering countries.
– user94036
7 hours ago
1
@user94036 Sorry I understand, but am keeping this general to avoid making the exposure already here, and also to support others in a similar situation elsewhere, who come across this discussion. By emphasizing "not US" I imply that a lawsuit are not the default course of action in resolving disputes locally, which I think is the case for most of the world. Also I think most active respondents are in the US and think according with local principles/standards, so I leave this as a reminder.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
3
I understand your emotions and urge to prevent others for entering such trap. I fully agree with Buffy on this one : “If you want to play power politics make sure that you have the power first.â€Â. You do not have that power, yet. However, I just want to mention that by posting this question, you already reached potential candidates. You are not completely powerless. In my view, the best ‘revenge’ is not to fight them openly but to excell in your career. Warn you peers discretely.
– Alice
5 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
10
Can you say what you mean by "openly expose"? I'm imagining something like standing up in a crowded room, pointing and shouting "There sits the man who has wronged me!" like a scene from a Gothic novel. That certainly isn't something I'd advise.
– Nate Eldredge
8 hours ago
2
@NateEldredge Yeah, as much as I'd love living such a moment that wouldn't be a wise plan. However I might: (i) not sake hands and smile back; (ii) ask at the end of the relevant talk why isn't my contribution acknowledged; (iii) approach my other friends in the open stating they just scammed off salary, funding, data. No need to shout and wear a black mantle there. I am considering contacting a local reporter (I exposed scientific misconduct in local newspapers before).
– Scientist
8 hours ago
4
"This is not in the US" it would be more helpful to know where it is, than where it isn't. What is acceptable one place may not be in another, even in bordering countries.
– user94036
7 hours ago
1
@user94036 Sorry I understand, but am keeping this general to avoid making the exposure already here, and also to support others in a similar situation elsewhere, who come across this discussion. By emphasizing "not US" I imply that a lawsuit are not the default course of action in resolving disputes locally, which I think is the case for most of the world. Also I think most active respondents are in the US and think according with local principles/standards, so I leave this as a reminder.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
3
I understand your emotions and urge to prevent others for entering such trap. I fully agree with Buffy on this one : “If you want to play power politics make sure that you have the power first.â€Â. You do not have that power, yet. However, I just want to mention that by posting this question, you already reached potential candidates. You are not completely powerless. In my view, the best ‘revenge’ is not to fight them openly but to excell in your career. Warn you peers discretely.
– Alice
5 hours ago
10
10
Can you say what you mean by "openly expose"? I'm imagining something like standing up in a crowded room, pointing and shouting "There sits the man who has wronged me!" like a scene from a Gothic novel. That certainly isn't something I'd advise.
– Nate Eldredge
8 hours ago
Can you say what you mean by "openly expose"? I'm imagining something like standing up in a crowded room, pointing and shouting "There sits the man who has wronged me!" like a scene from a Gothic novel. That certainly isn't something I'd advise.
– Nate Eldredge
8 hours ago
2
2
@NateEldredge Yeah, as much as I'd love living such a moment that wouldn't be a wise plan. However I might: (i) not sake hands and smile back; (ii) ask at the end of the relevant talk why isn't my contribution acknowledged; (iii) approach my other friends in the open stating they just scammed off salary, funding, data. No need to shout and wear a black mantle there. I am considering contacting a local reporter (I exposed scientific misconduct in local newspapers before).
– Scientist
8 hours ago
@NateEldredge Yeah, as much as I'd love living such a moment that wouldn't be a wise plan. However I might: (i) not sake hands and smile back; (ii) ask at the end of the relevant talk why isn't my contribution acknowledged; (iii) approach my other friends in the open stating they just scammed off salary, funding, data. No need to shout and wear a black mantle there. I am considering contacting a local reporter (I exposed scientific misconduct in local newspapers before).
– Scientist
8 hours ago
4
4
"This is not in the US" it would be more helpful to know where it is, than where it isn't. What is acceptable one place may not be in another, even in bordering countries.
– user94036
7 hours ago
"This is not in the US" it would be more helpful to know where it is, than where it isn't. What is acceptable one place may not be in another, even in bordering countries.
– user94036
7 hours ago
1
1
@user94036 Sorry I understand, but am keeping this general to avoid making the exposure already here, and also to support others in a similar situation elsewhere, who come across this discussion. By emphasizing "not US" I imply that a lawsuit are not the default course of action in resolving disputes locally, which I think is the case for most of the world. Also I think most active respondents are in the US and think according with local principles/standards, so I leave this as a reminder.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
@user94036 Sorry I understand, but am keeping this general to avoid making the exposure already here, and also to support others in a similar situation elsewhere, who come across this discussion. By emphasizing "not US" I imply that a lawsuit are not the default course of action in resolving disputes locally, which I think is the case for most of the world. Also I think most active respondents are in the US and think according with local principles/standards, so I leave this as a reminder.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
3
3
I understand your emotions and urge to prevent others for entering such trap. I fully agree with Buffy on this one : “If you want to play power politics make sure that you have the power first.â€Â. You do not have that power, yet. However, I just want to mention that by posting this question, you already reached potential candidates. You are not completely powerless. In my view, the best ‘revenge’ is not to fight them openly but to excell in your career. Warn you peers discretely.
– Alice
5 hours ago
I understand your emotions and urge to prevent others for entering such trap. I fully agree with Buffy on this one : “If you want to play power politics make sure that you have the power first.â€Â. You do not have that power, yet. However, I just want to mention that by posting this question, you already reached potential candidates. You are not completely powerless. In my view, the best ‘revenge’ is not to fight them openly but to excell in your career. Warn you peers discretely.
– Alice
5 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
8
down vote
There is a lot going on here. If you want to play power politics make sure that you have the power first.
You contemplate making an accusation. Depending on local law and custom this could open you to a charge of slander that you would have to defend. Far in the past a duel on the green would be seen as the appropriate response. Now it is lawyers instead of pistols, of course.
If you can make the claim fairly and can also do so anonymously you protect yourself. If the journalists you intend to speak with can really protect "their sources" (i.e. your identity) it might be possible. But they will need evidence even though they are less susceptible to a charge of slander.
But an emotional response won't help anyone and might reflect badly on yourself.
But I see your dilemma. Others may be at risk here if you don't make some attempt. I think that the conference chairs that I have worked with would listen to your complaint if you can contact them. This won't guarantee anonymity, of course, but in the best case it could put other powerful people in your camp. On the other hand, if the committee is somehow aligned with the PIs in question it would be the worst situation of all.
One rather scary possibility is that you confront them privately and tell them your complaints and that you don't like to see them recruiting others into the same situation you faced. If you know of any others who already faced the same situation and you can confront the PI as a group it would be even better. Some people have no shame at all and some are driven by forces even they can't control, but you might let them think that withdrawal is a better option than continuing. Scary, though.
Ethics don't require, in a case like this, that you put yourself at risk to save others.
answered 8 hours ago
Buffy
8,89433448
2
Thanks for the sensible insights. I understand the theoretical danger of being accused of slander, etc, but I highly doubt that would apply in this case. The law and official procedures in my country are such a pain already for a local. As Chinese these guys are stiffly restricted on how long they can stay, and this is a small town. I'd be very hard for them to pursue this, and they're not culturally inclined. Plus, I have all proof that I was mistreated. As mentioned, the consulate was directly involved.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
I understand the bad exposure from passionately spluttering things out, and I believe this is one the pillars of their confidence. I would have to be crazy to "make a scene" against a professor in public in China. However my country isn't like that. A great scene actually often makes one get quite popular (locally). I think I can control the emotional display enough, as I am not a 100% local.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
Now, actually I am not scared of confronting them face to face. This is actually how we sort things out here, fights are fairly common. I'd prefer to avoid that, though, because I might snap and thus escalate, and it invites them to come up with straight-face lies, threats, accusations, etc. These guys will immediately act out any sort of story to support their "face".
– Scientist
7 hours ago
5
Re the lawyers : it is worth remembering the lawyers mantra : « a man is innocent until proven broke... »
– Solar Mike
5 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
I advise you to talk with a lawyer ASAP.
If it were in my country the embassy/consulate was involved, as per work law, I can choose the jurisdiction as my home town...and so, being the jurisdiction local, local laws kick in, and a signature of mine in the Chinese version of contracts would be mostly nil because I do not understand Chinese.
However there might be lengths of time to do that, 1 year at most year in my case, so hurry up.
Some of the charges besides monetary might be criminal...as said, pay a consultation with a lawyer to clear out if you have any leg to stand on in a case.
I would also talk with your University body to see it is worth filling a written complaint that prevents them to deal as an accredited academic reputable entity locally. If you can find others that were also wronged, so much the better.
answered 1 hour ago
Rui F Ribeiro
325211
I don’t think suing them abroad for having scammed me in China would apply. As an ex-postdoc I have no affiliation at the moment. If you meant their university on raising a complaint, I’ve done already and it was like talking to the wind. The typical strategy is feigning dead / deaf / absent to avoid conflict as possible.
– Scientist
43 mins ago
I considered suing them in China but almost everyone said it’d be a huge waste of money and time, and the court would be tempted to rule on the university side to save face.
– Scientist
42 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
-1
down vote
I do not know your local laws and I am not a lawyer, but I suggest that the appropriate way to speak out is to use your local courts. It sounds like you have a legal issue (wage theft) not an academic one. You can begin litigation against your former supervisor.
Presumably, if your former supervisor appears in your local court, they can win any litigation on the basis of jurisdiction. But you are interested in speaking out and stopping your former supervisor from seeking new victims. Unsuccessful litigation could achieve those goals. I would expect your former supervisor to respond to litigation by avoiding your country.
answered 4 hours ago
Anonymous Physicist
17k63370
1
I guess this is why he wrote "This is not in the US".
– pipe
3 hours ago
I appreciate the strategy of just suing for whatever to make the case public, but that’s an awfully expensive time-consuming strategy. It’s a nice strategy for publication and attracting publicity, if one does have a fortune. For now by the time I write this pieceand get it filed, they’ll be off the country again.
– Scientist
38 mins ago
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
8
down vote
There is a lot going on here. If you want to play power politics make sure that you have the power first.
You contemplate making an accusation. Depending on local law and custom this could open you to a charge of slander that you would have to defend. Far in the past a duel on the green would be seen as the appropriate response. Now it is lawyers instead of pistols, of course.
If you can make the claim fairly and can also do so anonymously you protect yourself. If the journalists you intend to speak with can really protect "their sources" (i.e. your identity) it might be possible. But they will need evidence even though they are less susceptible to a charge of slander.
But an emotional response won't help anyone and might reflect badly on yourself.
But I see your dilemma. Others may be at risk here if you don't make some attempt. I think that the conference chairs that I have worked with would listen to your complaint if you can contact them. This won't guarantee anonymity, of course, but in the best case it could put other powerful people in your camp. On the other hand, if the committee is somehow aligned with the PIs in question it would be the worst situation of all.
One rather scary possibility is that you confront them privately and tell them your complaints and that you don't like to see them recruiting others into the same situation you faced. If you know of any others who already faced the same situation and you can confront the PI as a group it would be even better. Some people have no shame at all and some are driven by forces even they can't control, but you might let them think that withdrawal is a better option than continuing. Scary, though.
Ethics don't require, in a case like this, that you put yourself at risk to save others.
answered 8 hours ago
Buffy
8,89433448
2
Thanks for the sensible insights. I understand the theoretical danger of being accused of slander, etc, but I highly doubt that would apply in this case. The law and official procedures in my country are such a pain already for a local. As Chinese these guys are stiffly restricted on how long they can stay, and this is a small town. I'd be very hard for them to pursue this, and they're not culturally inclined. Plus, I have all proof that I was mistreated. As mentioned, the consulate was directly involved.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
I understand the bad exposure from passionately spluttering things out, and I believe this is one the pillars of their confidence. I would have to be crazy to "make a scene" against a professor in public in China. However my country isn't like that. A great scene actually often makes one get quite popular (locally). I think I can control the emotional display enough, as I am not a 100% local.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
Now, actually I am not scared of confronting them face to face. This is actually how we sort things out here, fights are fairly common. I'd prefer to avoid that, though, because I might snap and thus escalate, and it invites them to come up with straight-face lies, threats, accusations, etc. These guys will immediately act out any sort of story to support their "face".
– Scientist
7 hours ago
5
Re the lawyers : it is worth remembering the lawyers mantra : « a man is innocent until proven broke... »
– Solar Mike
5 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
8
down vote
There is a lot going on here. If you want to play power politics make sure that you have the power first.
You contemplate making an accusation. Depending on local law and custom this could open you to a charge of slander that you would have to defend. Far in the past a duel on the green would be seen as the appropriate response. Now it is lawyers instead of pistols, of course.
If you can make the claim fairly and can also do so anonymously you protect yourself. If the journalists you intend to speak with can really protect "their sources" (i.e. your identity) it might be possible. But they will need evidence even though they are less susceptible to a charge of slander.
But an emotional response won't help anyone and might reflect badly on yourself.
But I see your dilemma. Others may be at risk here if you don't make some attempt. I think that the conference chairs that I have worked with would listen to your complaint if you can contact them. This won't guarantee anonymity, of course, but in the best case it could put other powerful people in your camp. On the other hand, if the committee is somehow aligned with the PIs in question it would be the worst situation of all.
One rather scary possibility is that you confront them privately and tell them your complaints and that you don't like to see them recruiting others into the same situation you faced. If you know of any others who already faced the same situation and you can confront the PI as a group it would be even better. Some people have no shame at all and some are driven by forces even they can't control, but you might let them think that withdrawal is a better option than continuing. Scary, though.
Ethics don't require, in a case like this, that you put yourself at risk to save others.
answered 8 hours ago
Buffy
8,89433448
2
Thanks for the sensible insights. I understand the theoretical danger of being accused of slander, etc, but I highly doubt that would apply in this case. The law and official procedures in my country are such a pain already for a local. As Chinese these guys are stiffly restricted on how long they can stay, and this is a small town. I'd be very hard for them to pursue this, and they're not culturally inclined. Plus, I have all proof that I was mistreated. As mentioned, the consulate was directly involved.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
I understand the bad exposure from passionately spluttering things out, and I believe this is one the pillars of their confidence. I would have to be crazy to "make a scene" against a professor in public in China. However my country isn't like that. A great scene actually often makes one get quite popular (locally). I think I can control the emotional display enough, as I am not a 100% local.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
Now, actually I am not scared of confronting them face to face. This is actually how we sort things out here, fights are fairly common. I'd prefer to avoid that, though, because I might snap and thus escalate, and it invites them to come up with straight-face lies, threats, accusations, etc. These guys will immediately act out any sort of story to support their "face".
– Scientist
7 hours ago
5
Re the lawyers : it is worth remembering the lawyers mantra : « a man is innocent until proven broke... »
– Solar Mike
5 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
8
down vote
up vote
8
down vote
There is a lot going on here. If you want to play power politics make sure that you have the power first.
You contemplate making an accusation. Depending on local law and custom this could open you to a charge of slander that you would have to defend. Far in the past a duel on the green would be seen as the appropriate response. Now it is lawyers instead of pistols, of course.
If you can make the claim fairly and can also do so anonymously you protect yourself. If the journalists you intend to speak with can really protect "their sources" (i.e. your identity) it might be possible. But they will need evidence even though they are less susceptible to a charge of slander.
But an emotional response won't help anyone and might reflect badly on yourself.
But I see your dilemma. Others may be at risk here if you don't make some attempt. I think that the conference chairs that I have worked with would listen to your complaint if you can contact them. This won't guarantee anonymity, of course, but in the best case it could put other powerful people in your camp. On the other hand, if the committee is somehow aligned with the PIs in question it would be the worst situation of all.
One rather scary possibility is that you confront them privately and tell them your complaints and that you don't like to see them recruiting others into the same situation you faced. If you know of any others who already faced the same situation and you can confront the PI as a group it would be even better. Some people have no shame at all and some are driven by forces even they can't control, but you might let them think that withdrawal is a better option than continuing. Scary, though.
Ethics don't require, in a case like this, that you put yourself at risk to save others.
answered 8 hours ago
Buffy
8,89433448
There is a lot going on here. If you want to play power politics make sure that you have the power first.
You contemplate making an accusation. Depending on local law and custom this could open you to a charge of slander that you would have to defend. Far in the past a duel on the green would be seen as the appropriate response. Now it is lawyers instead of pistols, of course.
If you can make the claim fairly and can also do so anonymously you protect yourself. If the journalists you intend to speak with can really protect "their sources" (i.e. your identity) it might be possible. But they will need evidence even though they are less susceptible to a charge of slander.
But an emotional response won't help anyone and might reflect badly on yourself.
But I see your dilemma. Others may be at risk here if you don't make some attempt. I think that the conference chairs that I have worked with would listen to your complaint if you can contact them. This won't guarantee anonymity, of course, but in the best case it could put other powerful people in your camp. On the other hand, if the committee is somehow aligned with the PIs in question it would be the worst situation of all.
One rather scary possibility is that you confront them privately and tell them your complaints and that you don't like to see them recruiting others into the same situation you faced. If you know of any others who already faced the same situation and you can confront the PI as a group it would be even better. Some people have no shame at all and some are driven by forces even they can't control, but you might let them think that withdrawal is a better option than continuing. Scary, though.
Ethics don't require, in a case like this, that you put yourself at risk to save others.
answered 8 hours ago
Buffy
8,89433448
answered 8 hours ago
Buffy
8,89433448
answered 8 hours ago
Buffy
8,89433448
answered 8 hours ago
Buffy
8,89433448
8,89433448
2
Thanks for the sensible insights. I understand the theoretical danger of being accused of slander, etc, but I highly doubt that would apply in this case. The law and official procedures in my country are such a pain already for a local. As Chinese these guys are stiffly restricted on how long they can stay, and this is a small town. I'd be very hard for them to pursue this, and they're not culturally inclined. Plus, I have all proof that I was mistreated. As mentioned, the consulate was directly involved.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
I understand the bad exposure from passionately spluttering things out, and I believe this is one the pillars of their confidence. I would have to be crazy to "make a scene" against a professor in public in China. However my country isn't like that. A great scene actually often makes one get quite popular (locally). I think I can control the emotional display enough, as I am not a 100% local.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
Now, actually I am not scared of confronting them face to face. This is actually how we sort things out here, fights are fairly common. I'd prefer to avoid that, though, because I might snap and thus escalate, and it invites them to come up with straight-face lies, threats, accusations, etc. These guys will immediately act out any sort of story to support their "face".
– Scientist
7 hours ago
5
Re the lawyers : it is worth remembering the lawyers mantra : « a man is innocent until proven broke... »
– Solar Mike
5 hours ago
add a comment |Â
2
Thanks for the sensible insights. I understand the theoretical danger of being accused of slander, etc, but I highly doubt that would apply in this case. The law and official procedures in my country are such a pain already for a local. As Chinese these guys are stiffly restricted on how long they can stay, and this is a small town. I'd be very hard for them to pursue this, and they're not culturally inclined. Plus, I have all proof that I was mistreated. As mentioned, the consulate was directly involved.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
I understand the bad exposure from passionately spluttering things out, and I believe this is one the pillars of their confidence. I would have to be crazy to "make a scene" against a professor in public in China. However my country isn't like that. A great scene actually often makes one get quite popular (locally). I think I can control the emotional display enough, as I am not a 100% local.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
Now, actually I am not scared of confronting them face to face. This is actually how we sort things out here, fights are fairly common. I'd prefer to avoid that, though, because I might snap and thus escalate, and it invites them to come up with straight-face lies, threats, accusations, etc. These guys will immediately act out any sort of story to support their "face".
– Scientist
7 hours ago
5
Re the lawyers : it is worth remembering the lawyers mantra : « a man is innocent until proven broke... »
– Solar Mike
5 hours ago
2
2
Thanks for the sensible insights. I understand the theoretical danger of being accused of slander, etc, but I highly doubt that would apply in this case. The law and official procedures in my country are such a pain already for a local. As Chinese these guys are stiffly restricted on how long they can stay, and this is a small town. I'd be very hard for them to pursue this, and they're not culturally inclined. Plus, I have all proof that I was mistreated. As mentioned, the consulate was directly involved.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
Thanks for the sensible insights. I understand the theoretical danger of being accused of slander, etc, but I highly doubt that would apply in this case. The law and official procedures in my country are such a pain already for a local. As Chinese these guys are stiffly restricted on how long they can stay, and this is a small town. I'd be very hard for them to pursue this, and they're not culturally inclined. Plus, I have all proof that I was mistreated. As mentioned, the consulate was directly involved.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
I understand the bad exposure from passionately spluttering things out, and I believe this is one the pillars of their confidence. I would have to be crazy to "make a scene" against a professor in public in China. However my country isn't like that. A great scene actually often makes one get quite popular (locally). I think I can control the emotional display enough, as I am not a 100% local.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
I understand the bad exposure from passionately spluttering things out, and I believe this is one the pillars of their confidence. I would have to be crazy to "make a scene" against a professor in public in China. However my country isn't like that. A great scene actually often makes one get quite popular (locally). I think I can control the emotional display enough, as I am not a 100% local.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
Now, actually I am not scared of confronting them face to face. This is actually how we sort things out here, fights are fairly common. I'd prefer to avoid that, though, because I might snap and thus escalate, and it invites them to come up with straight-face lies, threats, accusations, etc. These guys will immediately act out any sort of story to support their "face".
– Scientist
7 hours ago
Now, actually I am not scared of confronting them face to face. This is actually how we sort things out here, fights are fairly common. I'd prefer to avoid that, though, because I might snap and thus escalate, and it invites them to come up with straight-face lies, threats, accusations, etc. These guys will immediately act out any sort of story to support their "face".
– Scientist
7 hours ago
5
5
Re the lawyers : it is worth remembering the lawyers mantra : « a man is innocent until proven broke... »
– Solar Mike
5 hours ago
Re the lawyers : it is worth remembering the lawyers mantra : « a man is innocent until proven broke... »
– Solar Mike
5 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
I advise you to talk with a lawyer ASAP.
If it were in my country the embassy/consulate was involved, as per work law, I can choose the jurisdiction as my home town...and so, being the jurisdiction local, local laws kick in, and a signature of mine in the Chinese version of contracts would be mostly nil because I do not understand Chinese.
However there might be lengths of time to do that, 1 year at most year in my case, so hurry up.
Some of the charges besides monetary might be criminal...as said, pay a consultation with a lawyer to clear out if you have any leg to stand on in a case.
I would also talk with your University body to see it is worth filling a written complaint that prevents them to deal as an accredited academic reputable entity locally. If you can find others that were also wronged, so much the better.
answered 1 hour ago
Rui F Ribeiro
325211
I don’t think suing them abroad for having scammed me in China would apply. As an ex-postdoc I have no affiliation at the moment. If you meant their university on raising a complaint, I’ve done already and it was like talking to the wind. The typical strategy is feigning dead / deaf / absent to avoid conflict as possible.
– Scientist
43 mins ago
I considered suing them in China but almost everyone said it’d be a huge waste of money and time, and the court would be tempted to rule on the university side to save face.
– Scientist
42 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
I advise you to talk with a lawyer ASAP.
If it were in my country the embassy/consulate was involved, as per work law, I can choose the jurisdiction as my home town...and so, being the jurisdiction local, local laws kick in, and a signature of mine in the Chinese version of contracts would be mostly nil because I do not understand Chinese.
However there might be lengths of time to do that, 1 year at most year in my case, so hurry up.
Some of the charges besides monetary might be criminal...as said, pay a consultation with a lawyer to clear out if you have any leg to stand on in a case.
I would also talk with your University body to see it is worth filling a written complaint that prevents them to deal as an accredited academic reputable entity locally. If you can find others that were also wronged, so much the better.
answered 1 hour ago
Rui F Ribeiro
325211
I don’t think suing them abroad for having scammed me in China would apply. As an ex-postdoc I have no affiliation at the moment. If you meant their university on raising a complaint, I’ve done already and it was like talking to the wind. The typical strategy is feigning dead / deaf / absent to avoid conflict as possible.
– Scientist
43 mins ago
I considered suing them in China but almost everyone said it’d be a huge waste of money and time, and the court would be tempted to rule on the university side to save face.
– Scientist
42 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
I advise you to talk with a lawyer ASAP.
If it were in my country the embassy/consulate was involved, as per work law, I can choose the jurisdiction as my home town...and so, being the jurisdiction local, local laws kick in, and a signature of mine in the Chinese version of contracts would be mostly nil because I do not understand Chinese.
However there might be lengths of time to do that, 1 year at most year in my case, so hurry up.
Some of the charges besides monetary might be criminal...as said, pay a consultation with a lawyer to clear out if you have any leg to stand on in a case.
I would also talk with your University body to see it is worth filling a written complaint that prevents them to deal as an accredited academic reputable entity locally. If you can find others that were also wronged, so much the better.
answered 1 hour ago
Rui F Ribeiro
325211
I advise you to talk with a lawyer ASAP.
If it were in my country the embassy/consulate was involved, as per work law, I can choose the jurisdiction as my home town...and so, being the jurisdiction local, local laws kick in, and a signature of mine in the Chinese version of contracts would be mostly nil because I do not understand Chinese.
However there might be lengths of time to do that, 1 year at most year in my case, so hurry up.
Some of the charges besides monetary might be criminal...as said, pay a consultation with a lawyer to clear out if you have any leg to stand on in a case.
I would also talk with your University body to see it is worth filling a written complaint that prevents them to deal as an accredited academic reputable entity locally. If you can find others that were also wronged, so much the better.
answered 1 hour ago
Rui F Ribeiro
325211
edited 1 hour ago
answered 1 hour ago
Rui F Ribeiro
325211
answered 1 hour ago
Rui F Ribeiro
325211
answered 1 hour ago
Rui F Ribeiro
325211
325211
I don’t think suing them abroad for having scammed me in China would apply. As an ex-postdoc I have no affiliation at the moment. If you meant their university on raising a complaint, I’ve done already and it was like talking to the wind. The typical strategy is feigning dead / deaf / absent to avoid conflict as possible.
– Scientist
43 mins ago
I considered suing them in China but almost everyone said it’d be a huge waste of money and time, and the court would be tempted to rule on the university side to save face.
– Scientist
42 mins ago
add a comment |Â
I don’t think suing them abroad for having scammed me in China would apply. As an ex-postdoc I have no affiliation at the moment. If you meant their university on raising a complaint, I’ve done already and it was like talking to the wind. The typical strategy is feigning dead / deaf / absent to avoid conflict as possible.
– Scientist
43 mins ago
I considered suing them in China but almost everyone said it’d be a huge waste of money and time, and the court would be tempted to rule on the university side to save face.
– Scientist
42 mins ago
I don’t think suing them abroad for having scammed me in China would apply. As an ex-postdoc I have no affiliation at the moment. If you meant their university on raising a complaint, I’ve done already and it was like talking to the wind. The typical strategy is feigning dead / deaf / absent to avoid conflict as possible.
– Scientist
43 mins ago
I don’t think suing them abroad for having scammed me in China would apply. As an ex-postdoc I have no affiliation at the moment. If you meant their university on raising a complaint, I’ve done already and it was like talking to the wind. The typical strategy is feigning dead / deaf / absent to avoid conflict as possible.
– Scientist
43 mins ago
I considered suing them in China but almost everyone said it’d be a huge waste of money and time, and the court would be tempted to rule on the university side to save face.
– Scientist
42 mins ago
I considered suing them in China but almost everyone said it’d be a huge waste of money and time, and the court would be tempted to rule on the university side to save face.
– Scientist
42 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
-1
down vote
I do not know your local laws and I am not a lawyer, but I suggest that the appropriate way to speak out is to use your local courts. It sounds like you have a legal issue (wage theft) not an academic one. You can begin litigation against your former supervisor.
Presumably, if your former supervisor appears in your local court, they can win any litigation on the basis of jurisdiction. But you are interested in speaking out and stopping your former supervisor from seeking new victims. Unsuccessful litigation could achieve those goals. I would expect your former supervisor to respond to litigation by avoiding your country.
answered 4 hours ago
Anonymous Physicist
17k63370
1
I guess this is why he wrote "This is not in the US".
– pipe
3 hours ago
I appreciate the strategy of just suing for whatever to make the case public, but that’s an awfully expensive time-consuming strategy. It’s a nice strategy for publication and attracting publicity, if one does have a fortune. For now by the time I write this pieceand get it filed, they’ll be off the country again.
– Scientist
38 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
-1
down vote
I do not know your local laws and I am not a lawyer, but I suggest that the appropriate way to speak out is to use your local courts. It sounds like you have a legal issue (wage theft) not an academic one. You can begin litigation against your former supervisor.
Presumably, if your former supervisor appears in your local court, they can win any litigation on the basis of jurisdiction. But you are interested in speaking out and stopping your former supervisor from seeking new victims. Unsuccessful litigation could achieve those goals. I would expect your former supervisor to respond to litigation by avoiding your country.
answered 4 hours ago
Anonymous Physicist
17k63370
1
I guess this is why he wrote "This is not in the US".
– pipe
3 hours ago
I appreciate the strategy of just suing for whatever to make the case public, but that’s an awfully expensive time-consuming strategy. It’s a nice strategy for publication and attracting publicity, if one does have a fortune. For now by the time I write this pieceand get it filed, they’ll be off the country again.
– Scientist
38 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
I do not know your local laws and I am not a lawyer, but I suggest that the appropriate way to speak out is to use your local courts. It sounds like you have a legal issue (wage theft) not an academic one. You can begin litigation against your former supervisor.
Presumably, if your former supervisor appears in your local court, they can win any litigation on the basis of jurisdiction. But you are interested in speaking out and stopping your former supervisor from seeking new victims. Unsuccessful litigation could achieve those goals. I would expect your former supervisor to respond to litigation by avoiding your country.
answered 4 hours ago
Anonymous Physicist
17k63370
I do not know your local laws and I am not a lawyer, but I suggest that the appropriate way to speak out is to use your local courts. It sounds like you have a legal issue (wage theft) not an academic one. You can begin litigation against your former supervisor.
Presumably, if your former supervisor appears in your local court, they can win any litigation on the basis of jurisdiction. But you are interested in speaking out and stopping your former supervisor from seeking new victims. Unsuccessful litigation could achieve those goals. I would expect your former supervisor to respond to litigation by avoiding your country.
answered 4 hours ago
Anonymous Physicist
17k63370
answered 4 hours ago
Anonymous Physicist
17k63370
answered 4 hours ago
Anonymous Physicist
17k63370
answered 4 hours ago
Anonymous Physicist
17k63370
17k63370
1
I guess this is why he wrote "This is not in the US".
– pipe
3 hours ago
I appreciate the strategy of just suing for whatever to make the case public, but that’s an awfully expensive time-consuming strategy. It’s a nice strategy for publication and attracting publicity, if one does have a fortune. For now by the time I write this pieceand get it filed, they’ll be off the country again.
– Scientist
38 mins ago
add a comment |Â
1
I guess this is why he wrote "This is not in the US".
– pipe
3 hours ago
I appreciate the strategy of just suing for whatever to make the case public, but that’s an awfully expensive time-consuming strategy. It’s a nice strategy for publication and attracting publicity, if one does have a fortune. For now by the time I write this pieceand get it filed, they’ll be off the country again.
– Scientist
38 mins ago
1
1
I guess this is why he wrote "This is not in the US".
– pipe
3 hours ago
I guess this is why he wrote "This is not in the US".
– pipe
3 hours ago
I appreciate the strategy of just suing for whatever to make the case public, but that’s an awfully expensive time-consuming strategy. It’s a nice strategy for publication and attracting publicity, if one does have a fortune. For now by the time I write this pieceand get it filed, they’ll be off the country again.
– Scientist
38 mins ago
I appreciate the strategy of just suing for whatever to make the case public, but that’s an awfully expensive time-consuming strategy. It’s a nice strategy for publication and attracting publicity, if one does have a fortune. For now by the time I write this pieceand get it filed, they’ll be off the country again.
– Scientist
38 mins ago
add a comment |Â
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10
Can you say what you mean by "openly expose"? I'm imagining something like standing up in a crowded room, pointing and shouting "There sits the man who has wronged me!" like a scene from a Gothic novel. That certainly isn't something I'd advise.
– Nate Eldredge
8 hours ago
2
@NateEldredge Yeah, as much as I'd love living such a moment that wouldn't be a wise plan. However I might: (i) not sake hands and smile back; (ii) ask at the end of the relevant talk why isn't my contribution acknowledged; (iii) approach my other friends in the open stating they just scammed off salary, funding, data. No need to shout and wear a black mantle there. I am considering contacting a local reporter (I exposed scientific misconduct in local newspapers before).
– Scientist
8 hours ago
4
"This is not in the US" it would be more helpful to know where it is, than where it isn't. What is acceptable one place may not be in another, even in bordering countries.
– user94036
7 hours ago
1
@user94036 Sorry I understand, but am keeping this general to avoid making the exposure already here, and also to support others in a similar situation elsewhere, who come across this discussion. By emphasizing "not US" I imply that a lawsuit are not the default course of action in resolving disputes locally, which I think is the case for most of the world. Also I think most active respondents are in the US and think according with local principles/standards, so I leave this as a reminder.
– Scientist
7 hours ago
3
I understand your emotions and urge to prevent others for entering such trap. I fully agree with Buffy on this one : “If you want to play power politics make sure that you have the power first.â€Â. You do not have that power, yet. However, I just want to mention that by posting this question, you already reached potential candidates. You are not completely powerless. In my view, the best ‘revenge’ is not to fight them openly but to excell in your career. Warn you peers discretely.
– Alice
5 hours ago