ukmuiik

Question

I have a tremor, which varies in intensity. I recently ordered a sandwich at a restaurant, which was pretty easy to eat, but I gave up trying to eat the salad, because I was unable to do so with a fork. If I had been at home, I would have used my fingers to help get the lettuce on the fork (pushing the food with the fork, using my other hand as a backstop) or just picked up the leaves. Is this appropriate to do in public, or should I not eat anything unless I can do so reasonably politely?

I am middle-aged and have no other visible disabilities (which I mention since that might affect people's perceptions). I live in an urban area in the United States. If I am eating with another person, they would either already know of my tremor or I would tell them. Of course, I order foods that are relatively easy to eat (sandwiches, not soup), and I've started looking into adaptive silverware. I tip well and even more when I've been messy.

Update
There is no need to suggest tools or technology to help me eat neatly, although I appreciate the desire to be helpful. I have access to information about such products.

@ElysianFields Unfortunately not. On a bad day, I'd just knock the lettuce around or hit it against the plate (making noise). — Aug 2 at 22:21
There's new tech that self stabilizes allowing tremors to be less of an issue. It's been made especially for Parkinson's but of course, anyone can use them. I suggest searching "stabilizing utensils for parkinson's" on your favorite search engine. This is not an answer by any means but I hope this can help you not just in public but at home etc. as well. — 2 days ago
Please don't write answers in comments. it lowers quality control because people cannot downvote on potential answers here, only upvotes (and those upvotes do not earn you reputation), please feel free to make an answer for this question and see how it fares. Otherwise, this comment will potentially be deleted as it doesn't ask for clarification on the question. — 2 days ago
@Mast I'm thinking of casual dining, not fancy restaurants or formal banquets. — 10 hours ago

sphennings 7,19532542 · Answer 1 · 2018-08-02 20:46:58Z

Can you violate table manners in public? Of course you can. Everyone can. In fact until someone learns them it's likely that they will be unintentionally violating them.

Table manners are just codified expectations of behavior, normally considered part of "polite society". This is a reciprocal expectation. You can't hold someone's poor manners against them if you aren't acting politely yourself. It is an incredible breach of manners to expect of someone something that they are incapable of doing. Because of this there is an expectation that people will make reasonable accommodations for people's differences.

While you may be violating codified expectations about table manners, because you're incapable of meeting that standard and are making reasonable accommodations for your tremor (Choosing foods that are easier to eat, tipping extra when you make a mess), good manners dictate that your failure to abide by the specific expectations of fine dining should be treated as a non issue.

Thanks. FYI, I changed the start of my question from "Can I" to "May I". — Aug 3 at 1:44

user9570789 78217 · Answer 2 · 2018-08-02 20:31:06Z

Yes. In fact, "table manners" are a matter of circumstance, as anyone with a background in etiquette should tell you.

It is not physically possible for you to conform to my manner of eating, so I would be obliged to either conform to yours, or to politely ignore yours, depending on the specific nature of the issue. For anyone beyond the confines of your table to make a face or to say anything would be the height of rudeness, especially if you were sharing a meal with someone else who was nonplussed by your behavior.

Honestly, it doesn't sound like it creates a spectacle, even on a small scale. I doubt I'd notice if I were sitting 3 feet from you at another table, unless I was a nosy neighbor, and then any offense I might feel would really be on me and not you.

For anyone who, like me, was confused by the way this answer uses the word "nonplussed": merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/nonplussed — Aug 3 at 0:02
@ruakh - Yes, "nonplussed" is very much obscure. In this use, I would change it to "perplexed", at least in my head. — yesterday
@KevinFegan: I'm sorry, I think you must have misunderstood something. The point of my comment is that this answer is not using it to mean "perplexed" (the traditional standard sense), but rather, something like "unconcerned" (a newfangled sense that many of us aren't used to yet). (I'm surprised that you consider nonplussed to be obscure, but I suppose you must be right: if it weren't obscure, it wouldn't have managed to pick up a new sense that's nearly the opposite of the original.) — yesterday
@ruakh - Yes, after re-reading the answer, "unconcerned" does fit better. And, I think this demonstrates its obscurity, that you noticed it and thought it needed a link to a page describing it, and that I was confused and used the wrong definition. — yesterday
Please consider changing "nonplussed" to a less distracting word. Right now it detracts from an otherwise excellent answer. — 11 hours ago

score 17 · Answer 3 · 2018-08-03 01:42:44Z

"Table manners" is just one small subset of overall "good manners". One hallmark of good manners is patience and respect, and a desire to make others comfortable in your presence.

Someone displaying good manners would not, for example, comment on your disability unless you brought it up yourself. They may appear not to even notice your tremor or your use of your hands while eating, and indeed would treat you like they would any other table companion.

There are a number of resources that help teach "disability etiquette", with simple guidelines such as:

Find commonalities before thinking about differences.

DonÃ¢Â€Â™t assume they see their disability as a tragedy.

Ask if he or she needs assistance before providing it.

and various others. Again, many of these are simple common sense to someone with good manners.

The point of all this is that anyone who does seem offended by your "table manners" are themselves displaying a general lack of "good manners". It's likely the irony will go over their heads; still, there's no reason you yourself shouldn't be polite. If need be, offer a brief explanation, perhaps something like:

I'm sorry, I have a neurological tremor and can't hold my fork steady when I eat.

You should never feel as if you yourself did anything wrong, since it is their lack of good manners that is the issue. You are simply compensating for that by helping them feel more at ease.

Ruadhan2300 4775 · Answer 4 · 2018-08-03 14:42:02Z

Others have already given comprehensive answers, but I'll weigh in anyway.

I've always been rather partial to the phrase

"Those who matter won't mind, and those who mind don't matter"

Ultimately table-manners may be disregarded as much or little as you like, it's just a convention, one that comes after your own needs.
Do what you can, disregard what you can't.

If you need to drop the utensils and use your hands, do it with confidence.

If you aim to come across as more well-mannered though, then taking visible steps like using a napkin on your lap/tucked into your collar will make your behaviour appear more conscientious, and if dining with someone who wasn't previously aware of your needs you might benefit from saying something like

"Please excuse my use of fingers, my hands tend to shake too much for a
fork"

Notice the phrasing isn't an apology there. I wouldn't even try to apologise if you find yourself compelled to explain.

There's no shame in it and nothing to defend.

HumanJHawkins 913 · Answer 5 · 2018-08-02 22:34:54Z

Manners are ultimately a matter of protecting the right of some people to not be bothered by other people. On the scale of human rights, I weigh manners as fairly low priority. What seems of vastly higher priority is the right of each of us to fully participate in life.

Perhaps this can be made clear by considering what you would want of others in a similar situation... Consider a person with a breathing difficulty, that made eating slightly noisier than most. Not excessively so, but with more lip smacking and the occasional grunt. Would you want this person to be able to go out and eat in public, understanding that it might be distracting if they sat next to you some day? Or would you want them to stay out of public restaurants and not risk bothering you?

I'm hoping you would consider that a minor issue and would want that person to be able to enjoy a restaurant like anyone else. If so, consider that what you describe is even less distracting than this. There are only a few types of people who would be bothered by someone with a tremor eating with their fingers... Those of low empathy or low mental capacity who don't yet understand the frailty of our human condition. And those with extreme selfishness who feel that their wish for a specific kind of envoronment while eating should override another person's ability to live freely and normally.

Thank you. I had really been thinking that the polite thing was to eat at home. — 2 days ago

AnoE 2,4071815 · Answer 6 · 2018-08-03 05:39:07Z

I have a close family member who had that problem (until he got a brain pacemaker, which is a whole other story...). The worst were coffee cups, especially when the tremor got so bad that the content started flying.

Judging from that, you have your hands full with other problems anyways, and manners or the impression you leave should be the least of your worries. From that experience, I know that it is very obvious to people around you what is going on. It's not like you're coming across as a rebel or someone who has not learned manners. Nobody without that disability would try to ingest the food in that manner. I.e., you are not likely to get confused with, say, an adolescent who does it that way out of spite.

If you wish to make it even more clears, then the most you could do, in my opinion, would be to keep the rest of the manners (not related to your hands) in good working conditions. I.e., good body position, proper chewing sounds, using the correct implements at the correct time, and so on.

Also, obviously, if your tremor is related at all to your body tension, focus on relaxing - especially relax about what others may think about you. If they think bad about someone with a bodily, involuntary disability, then you don't want to care that much about their opinion, I believe.

"From that experience, I know that it is very obvious to people around you what is going on. It's not like you're coming across as a rebel or someone who has not learned manners". Exactly (+1). This is probably the core of the answers (and a way for you to relax). — 2 days ago

Arkadiy 1312 · Answer 7 · 2018-08-03 15:46:55Z

Joning the other people here, I would say that you do what you have to do to enjoy your meal.

However, I'd like to offer a twist: you could use a piece of bread, as suggested above, or even a napkin as you help yourself to hold on to the salad.

This will show anyone who happen to notice that you're not just casually grabbing your food with your fingers - you obviously put some thought into this.

Of course, expressing any opinion on your fellow diner's difficulties is in itself a height of impoliteness, as noted in other answers. But you using another tool to help yourself would help your fellows avoid such rudeness.

Or try if pushing with a knife works for you. That'd be the German alternative to the French pushing with bread. — 2 days ago

Jay Speidell 1212 · Answer 8 · 2018-08-04 04:13:06Z

I would say absolutely. Manners like this are small social rules and don't really impact anyone but yourself. Things like elbows on the table, using phones at the table, eating with your hands, etc. Most people will not care, and the people that will care may not be the people who you are about appeasing, if that makes sense.

You went to that restaurant and paid good money for a meal, and a disability prevents you from keeping up with some minor social constructs. You deserve to enjoy that meal as much as anybody else, and it doesn't matter how you have to get the job done.

If someone makes a comment about it or criticizes you, well, I can recommend two words and a hand gesture that will make them mind their own manners...

This just about the most "unmannered" answer possible IMO. What you are saying is "I can do whatever I like and the rest of the world can go **** if it doesn't like it". You obviously don't care that the other diners came to the restaurant with expectations of their own - which might not include "eating in a pigsty is just fine". — yesterday
No, I'm saying people with disabilities are allowed to eat in public without shame. — yesterday

Em C 8,55423466 · Answer 9 · 2018-08-03 18:00:19Z

So, a lot of the answers look at your specific circumstance, I thought I would approach it from the general stance.

Can you ignore good manners due to a disability? The real answer to me is no, but with the caveat that those good manners are a social contract, meant for a circumstance, time, and place.

Let's use another example. Here in Florida, is it considered pretty poor manners to hold the door to someone's house or business open if the next person entering is not doing so immediately. Other parts of the country would find this odd. But the reason this exists here is that it's hot and humid. If your paying a $350 electric bill, you don't really want someone standing with the door wide open for a few moments. You want the door open and shut.

Another example would be prayer. It's polite to stand for prayers when everyone else is, even if you don't believe. But no one expects that someone wheelchair-bound will stand.

However, there are times with disabilities do pose a "manners problem". For example, it is considered rude to listen to your laptop so loudly that it disturbs those around you. It would still be considered rude even if the listener was using a higher volume due to hearing issues.

Likewise, it is considered rude to yell in a restaurant. And would still be rude even if you were yelling at someone that was hard of hearing.

The key to good manners is to remember your impact on those around you. If the impact is none or small then breaking the "manners rule" just doesn't matter, if you're doing so because you are disabled. If you are just breaking the rule because your lazy, that is when it is considered rude.

If, however, the impact on others is large, then it is probably still considered rude.

Thank you for the general answer. Could you please apply it to my situation? — yesterday

DarkCygnus 1013 · Answer 10 · 2018-08-03 18:50:41Z

Is this appropriate to do in public, or should I not eat anything unless I can do so reasonably politely?

I don't see a problem in doing so. Surely it isn't Royalty-dinner manners but not offensive or impolite to do when in public.

However... there is no need to violate manners here... The appropriate and practical thing to do would be to use a knife to help you get the salad into the fork. If you are in a restaurant surely you can ask for one, or well you can bring one from home.

That way you won't have to use your fingers to do so, display good manners, and be able to enjoy your meal without worries.

Meh 1 · Answer 11 · 2018-08-05 21:37:45Z

Only in Hogwarts!

Seriously if the idea of a polite society is to accommodate simple table manors it should also take into accommodation throwing out half eaten food. I think the law is pretty flexible with accommodating those with disabilities and impairments. If that doesn't work out well there's always takeout its not much of an answer but at least it's an option.

I'm not sure how you're answering the question here, OP wasn't asking about legal accommodations but rather how to handle the social situation. — 2 hours ago

sphennings 7,19532542 · Answer 12 · 2018-08-02 20:46:58Z

Can you violate table manners in public? Of course you can. Everyone can. In fact until someone learns them it's likely that they will be unintentionally violating them.

Table manners are just codified expectations of behavior, normally considered part of "polite society". This is a reciprocal expectation. You can't hold someone's poor manners against them if you aren't acting politely yourself. It is an incredible breach of manners to expect of someone something that they are incapable of doing. Because of this there is an expectation that people will make reasonable accommodations for people's differences.

While you may be violating codified expectations about table manners, because you're incapable of meeting that standard and are making reasonable accommodations for your tremor (Choosing foods that are easier to eat, tipping extra when you make a mess), good manners dictate that your failure to abide by the specific expectations of fine dining should be treated as a non issue.

Thanks. FYI, I changed the start of my question from "Can I" to "May I". — Aug 3 at 1:44

user9570789 78217 · Answer 13 · 2018-08-02 20:31:06Z

Yes. In fact, "table manners" are a matter of circumstance, as anyone with a background in etiquette should tell you.

It is not physically possible for you to conform to my manner of eating, so I would be obliged to either conform to yours, or to politely ignore yours, depending on the specific nature of the issue. For anyone beyond the confines of your table to make a face or to say anything would be the height of rudeness, especially if you were sharing a meal with someone else who was nonplussed by your behavior.

Honestly, it doesn't sound like it creates a spectacle, even on a small scale. I doubt I'd notice if I were sitting 3 feet from you at another table, unless I was a nosy neighbor, and then any offense I might feel would really be on me and not you.

For anyone who, like me, was confused by the way this answer uses the word "nonplussed": merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/nonplussed — Aug 3 at 0:02
@ruakh - Yes, "nonplussed" is very much obscure. In this use, I would change it to "perplexed", at least in my head. — yesterday
@KevinFegan: I'm sorry, I think you must have misunderstood something. The point of my comment is that this answer is not using it to mean "perplexed" (the traditional standard sense), but rather, something like "unconcerned" (a newfangled sense that many of us aren't used to yet). (I'm surprised that you consider nonplussed to be obscure, but I suppose you must be right: if it weren't obscure, it wouldn't have managed to pick up a new sense that's nearly the opposite of the original.) — yesterday
@ruakh - Yes, after re-reading the answer, "unconcerned" does fit better. And, I think this demonstrates its obscurity, that you noticed it and thought it needed a link to a page describing it, and that I was confused and used the wrong definition. — yesterday
Please consider changing "nonplussed" to a less distracting word. Right now it detracts from an otherwise excellent answer. — 11 hours ago

score 17 · Answer 14 · 2018-08-03 01:42:44Z

"Table manners" is just one small subset of overall "good manners". One hallmark of good manners is patience and respect, and a desire to make others comfortable in your presence.

Someone displaying good manners would not, for example, comment on your disability unless you brought it up yourself. They may appear not to even notice your tremor or your use of your hands while eating, and indeed would treat you like they would any other table companion.

There are a number of resources that help teach "disability etiquette", with simple guidelines such as:

Find commonalities before thinking about differences.

DonÃ¢Â€Â™t assume they see their disability as a tragedy.

Ask if he or she needs assistance before providing it.

and various others. Again, many of these are simple common sense to someone with good manners.

The point of all this is that anyone who does seem offended by your "table manners" are themselves displaying a general lack of "good manners". It's likely the irony will go over their heads; still, there's no reason you yourself shouldn't be polite. If need be, offer a brief explanation, perhaps something like:

I'm sorry, I have a neurological tremor and can't hold my fork steady when I eat.

You should never feel as if you yourself did anything wrong, since it is their lack of good manners that is the issue. You are simply compensating for that by helping them feel more at ease.

Ruadhan2300 4775 · Answer 15 · 2018-08-03 14:42:02Z

Others have already given comprehensive answers, but I'll weigh in anyway.

I've always been rather partial to the phrase

"Those who matter won't mind, and those who mind don't matter"

Ultimately table-manners may be disregarded as much or little as you like, it's just a convention, one that comes after your own needs.
Do what you can, disregard what you can't.

If you need to drop the utensils and use your hands, do it with confidence.

If you aim to come across as more well-mannered though, then taking visible steps like using a napkin on your lap/tucked into your collar will make your behaviour appear more conscientious, and if dining with someone who wasn't previously aware of your needs you might benefit from saying something like

"Please excuse my use of fingers, my hands tend to shake too much for a
fork"

Notice the phrasing isn't an apology there. I wouldn't even try to apologise if you find yourself compelled to explain.

There's no shame in it and nothing to defend.

HumanJHawkins 913 · Answer 16 · 2018-08-02 22:34:54Z

Manners are ultimately a matter of protecting the right of some people to not be bothered by other people. On the scale of human rights, I weigh manners as fairly low priority. What seems of vastly higher priority is the right of each of us to fully participate in life.

Perhaps this can be made clear by considering what you would want of others in a similar situation... Consider a person with a breathing difficulty, that made eating slightly noisier than most. Not excessively so, but with more lip smacking and the occasional grunt. Would you want this person to be able to go out and eat in public, understanding that it might be distracting if they sat next to you some day? Or would you want them to stay out of public restaurants and not risk bothering you?

I'm hoping you would consider that a minor issue and would want that person to be able to enjoy a restaurant like anyone else. If so, consider that what you describe is even less distracting than this. There are only a few types of people who would be bothered by someone with a tremor eating with their fingers... Those of low empathy or low mental capacity who don't yet understand the frailty of our human condition. And those with extreme selfishness who feel that their wish for a specific kind of envoronment while eating should override another person's ability to live freely and normally.

Thank you. I had really been thinking that the polite thing was to eat at home. — 2 days ago

AnoE 2,4071815 · Answer 17 · 2018-08-03 05:39:07Z

I have a close family member who had that problem (until he got a brain pacemaker, which is a whole other story...). The worst were coffee cups, especially when the tremor got so bad that the content started flying.

Judging from that, you have your hands full with other problems anyways, and manners or the impression you leave should be the least of your worries. From that experience, I know that it is very obvious to people around you what is going on. It's not like you're coming across as a rebel or someone who has not learned manners. Nobody without that disability would try to ingest the food in that manner. I.e., you are not likely to get confused with, say, an adolescent who does it that way out of spite.

If you wish to make it even more clears, then the most you could do, in my opinion, would be to keep the rest of the manners (not related to your hands) in good working conditions. I.e., good body position, proper chewing sounds, using the correct implements at the correct time, and so on.

Also, obviously, if your tremor is related at all to your body tension, focus on relaxing - especially relax about what others may think about you. If they think bad about someone with a bodily, involuntary disability, then you don't want to care that much about their opinion, I believe.

"From that experience, I know that it is very obvious to people around you what is going on. It's not like you're coming across as a rebel or someone who has not learned manners". Exactly (+1). This is probably the core of the answers (and a way for you to relax). — 2 days ago

Arkadiy 1312 · Answer 18 · 2018-08-03 15:46:55Z

Joning the other people here, I would say that you do what you have to do to enjoy your meal.

However, I'd like to offer a twist: you could use a piece of bread, as suggested above, or even a napkin as you help yourself to hold on to the salad.

This will show anyone who happen to notice that you're not just casually grabbing your food with your fingers - you obviously put some thought into this.

Of course, expressing any opinion on your fellow diner's difficulties is in itself a height of impoliteness, as noted in other answers. But you using another tool to help yourself would help your fellows avoid such rudeness.

Or try if pushing with a knife works for you. That'd be the German alternative to the French pushing with bread. — 2 days ago

Jay Speidell 1212 · Answer 19 · 2018-08-04 04:13:06Z

I would say absolutely. Manners like this are small social rules and don't really impact anyone but yourself. Things like elbows on the table, using phones at the table, eating with your hands, etc. Most people will not care, and the people that will care may not be the people who you are about appeasing, if that makes sense.

You went to that restaurant and paid good money for a meal, and a disability prevents you from keeping up with some minor social constructs. You deserve to enjoy that meal as much as anybody else, and it doesn't matter how you have to get the job done.

If someone makes a comment about it or criticizes you, well, I can recommend two words and a hand gesture that will make them mind their own manners...

This just about the most "unmannered" answer possible IMO. What you are saying is "I can do whatever I like and the rest of the world can go **** if it doesn't like it". You obviously don't care that the other diners came to the restaurant with expectations of their own - which might not include "eating in a pigsty is just fine". — yesterday
No, I'm saying people with disabilities are allowed to eat in public without shame. — yesterday

Em C 8,55423466 · Answer 20 · 2018-08-03 18:00:19Z