Question regarding limits of multivariable functions - is it really zero?
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I am given the following problem in a textbook, and it's a solved problem.
Find $displaystyle lim_(x,y) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4$ or justify its nonexistence.
The author justifies the nonexistence of the limit in the following way: he uses the paths $x = 0$ then $y = 0$ and then, to justify its nonexistence, $y = x$. These are the author's notes:
Since
beginalign
lim_(x,0) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4 = lim_(x,0) to (0,0) fracx^2 cdot 0^2x^4 + 3 0^4 = lim_(x,0) to (0,0) frac0x^4 = 0
endalign
and
beginalign
lim_(0,y) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4 = lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac0^2 cdot y^20^4 + 3 y^4 = lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac03y^4 = 0
endalign
but
beginalign
lim_(x,x) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4 = lim_(x,x) to (0,0) fracx^2 cdot x^2x^4 + 3 x^4 = lim_(x,x) to (0,0) fracx^44x^4 = frac14
endalign
then the limit does not exist.
So my question is: are these limits
beginalign
lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac03y^4 qquad lim_(x,0) to (0,0) frac0x^4
endalign
really equal to zero? Shouldn't they be indeterminate, given that the variable on the denominator approaches zero?
limits multivariable-calculus limits-without-lhopital
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up vote
0
down vote
favorite
I am given the following problem in a textbook, and it's a solved problem.
Find $displaystyle lim_(x,y) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4$ or justify its nonexistence.
The author justifies the nonexistence of the limit in the following way: he uses the paths $x = 0$ then $y = 0$ and then, to justify its nonexistence, $y = x$. These are the author's notes:
Since
beginalign
lim_(x,0) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4 = lim_(x,0) to (0,0) fracx^2 cdot 0^2x^4 + 3 0^4 = lim_(x,0) to (0,0) frac0x^4 = 0
endalign
and
beginalign
lim_(0,y) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4 = lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac0^2 cdot y^20^4 + 3 y^4 = lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac03y^4 = 0
endalign
but
beginalign
lim_(x,x) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4 = lim_(x,x) to (0,0) fracx^2 cdot x^2x^4 + 3 x^4 = lim_(x,x) to (0,0) fracx^44x^4 = frac14
endalign
then the limit does not exist.
So my question is: are these limits
beginalign
lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac03y^4 qquad lim_(x,0) to (0,0) frac0x^4
endalign
really equal to zero? Shouldn't they be indeterminate, given that the variable on the denominator approaches zero?
limits multivariable-calculus limits-without-lhopital
Well they approach to $0$, but aren't $0$, what you should have written in the next step is that e.g. $lim 0/3y^4 = lim 0 = 0$
– Nameless
Aug 3 at 9:37
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0
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up vote
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favorite
I am given the following problem in a textbook, and it's a solved problem.
Find $displaystyle lim_(x,y) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4$ or justify its nonexistence.
The author justifies the nonexistence of the limit in the following way: he uses the paths $x = 0$ then $y = 0$ and then, to justify its nonexistence, $y = x$. These are the author's notes:
Since
beginalign
lim_(x,0) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4 = lim_(x,0) to (0,0) fracx^2 cdot 0^2x^4 + 3 0^4 = lim_(x,0) to (0,0) frac0x^4 = 0
endalign
and
beginalign
lim_(0,y) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4 = lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac0^2 cdot y^20^4 + 3 y^4 = lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac03y^4 = 0
endalign
but
beginalign
lim_(x,x) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4 = lim_(x,x) to (0,0) fracx^2 cdot x^2x^4 + 3 x^4 = lim_(x,x) to (0,0) fracx^44x^4 = frac14
endalign
then the limit does not exist.
So my question is: are these limits
beginalign
lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac03y^4 qquad lim_(x,0) to (0,0) frac0x^4
endalign
really equal to zero? Shouldn't they be indeterminate, given that the variable on the denominator approaches zero?
limits multivariable-calculus limits-without-lhopital
I am given the following problem in a textbook, and it's a solved problem.
Find $displaystyle lim_(x,y) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4$ or justify its nonexistence.
The author justifies the nonexistence of the limit in the following way: he uses the paths $x = 0$ then $y = 0$ and then, to justify its nonexistence, $y = x$. These are the author's notes:
Since
beginalign
lim_(x,0) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4 = lim_(x,0) to (0,0) fracx^2 cdot 0^2x^4 + 3 0^4 = lim_(x,0) to (0,0) frac0x^4 = 0
endalign
and
beginalign
lim_(0,y) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4 = lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac0^2 cdot y^20^4 + 3 y^4 = lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac03y^4 = 0
endalign
but
beginalign
lim_(x,x) to (0,0) fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4 = lim_(x,x) to (0,0) fracx^2 cdot x^2x^4 + 3 x^4 = lim_(x,x) to (0,0) fracx^44x^4 = frac14
endalign
then the limit does not exist.
So my question is: are these limits
beginalign
lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac03y^4 qquad lim_(x,0) to (0,0) frac0x^4
endalign
really equal to zero? Shouldn't they be indeterminate, given that the variable on the denominator approaches zero?
limits multivariable-calculus limits-without-lhopital
asked Aug 2 at 22:04
bru1987
930818
930818
Well they approach to $0$, but aren't $0$, what you should have written in the next step is that e.g. $lim 0/3y^4 = lim 0 = 0$
– Nameless
Aug 3 at 9:37
add a comment |Â
Well they approach to $0$, but aren't $0$, what you should have written in the next step is that e.g. $lim 0/3y^4 = lim 0 = 0$
– Nameless
Aug 3 at 9:37
Well they approach to $0$, but aren't $0$, what you should have written in the next step is that e.g. $lim 0/3y^4 = lim 0 = 0$
– Nameless
Aug 3 at 9:37
Well they approach to $0$, but aren't $0$, what you should have written in the next step is that e.g. $lim 0/3y^4 = lim 0 = 0$
– Nameless
Aug 3 at 9:37
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
No, both those limits are indeed defined and equal to zero.
The multivariable context is adding unnecessary "noise" here. Consider the simpler expression $$lim_xrightarrow 00over x,$$ which already captures what's going on.
Remember the precise definition of a limit. Colloquially, we often say something like "$lim_xrightarrow af(x)=L$ iff I can get $f$ to be as close as I want to $L$ just by requiring that $x$ be sufficiently close to $a$." However, this misses a very important point which is explicit in the precise formal definition: $$lim_xrightarrow af(x)=Liff forall epsilon>0exists delta>0forall x((colorred0<vert x-avert<delta)implies (vert f(x)-Lvert<epsilon)).$$ Note the "$0<$" clause in the left hand side: what this says is that we ignore the specific behavior of $f$ at exactly $a$.
This is why $lim_xrightarrow 00over x=0$, despite the bad behavior when $x$ is exactly $0$: for any $epsilon>0$, let $delta=17$ (say); then it's easy to check that for any $x$ within $17$ of $0$ but not actually equal to $0$, we have $vert0over x-0vert<epsilon$.
A reasonable question at this point is why we define limits this way. Ultimately that's a question that deserves a serious answer, but very briefly the point is that we're interested in what $f$ "ought to be" at $a$, not what it literally is. Both the derivative and the integral give great examples of this: in each case, we really want to divide by zero but that gives nonsense, so instead we look at what happens when the change in $x$ or the width of our rectangles gets really close to zero without actually being zero. This also gives a nice spin on continuity: intuitively, a function is continuous if it always is what it ought to be.
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Indeed, $lim_limits(0,y)to (0,0) frac 03y^4 = 0$ since for all $y$ in the neighborhood of $0, f(0,y) < epsilon$
However that is not sufficient for $lim_limits(x,y)to (0,0) frac x^2y^2x^4+3y^4$ . Because
$lim_limits(y,y)to (0,0) = frac y^44y^4 = frac 14.$
If the limit exists, it must be have the same value (be within $epsilon$ of it at least) for all $x,y$ in the neighborhood.
add a comment |Â
up vote
-1
down vote
Both limit
$$beginalign
lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac03y^4=0 qquad lim_(x,0) to (0,0) frac0x^4=0
endalign$$
are correct since the function $f(x,y)$ is identically zero along the trajectories with either $x=0$ or $y=0$.
In other words, what we cannot consider is $x=y=0$ at the same time but all the trajectories with either $x=0$ or $y=0$ are admissible and consistent with the definition of limit.
To clarify better that point see also the related Why are we allowed to cancel fractions in limits?
1
This is not answering the actual question, introduced in bold at the end of the OP: 'So my question is: are these limits [...] really equal to zero? Shouldn't they be indeterminate, given that the variable on the denominator approaches zero?"
– Clement C.
Aug 2 at 22:16
@ClementC. The answer was already contained in the point $$x=0 implies fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4=0$$ Moreover I've added a supplementary comment at the end to better aswer the main question.
– gimusi
Aug 2 at 22:19
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
No, both those limits are indeed defined and equal to zero.
The multivariable context is adding unnecessary "noise" here. Consider the simpler expression $$lim_xrightarrow 00over x,$$ which already captures what's going on.
Remember the precise definition of a limit. Colloquially, we often say something like "$lim_xrightarrow af(x)=L$ iff I can get $f$ to be as close as I want to $L$ just by requiring that $x$ be sufficiently close to $a$." However, this misses a very important point which is explicit in the precise formal definition: $$lim_xrightarrow af(x)=Liff forall epsilon>0exists delta>0forall x((colorred0<vert x-avert<delta)implies (vert f(x)-Lvert<epsilon)).$$ Note the "$0<$" clause in the left hand side: what this says is that we ignore the specific behavior of $f$ at exactly $a$.
This is why $lim_xrightarrow 00over x=0$, despite the bad behavior when $x$ is exactly $0$: for any $epsilon>0$, let $delta=17$ (say); then it's easy to check that for any $x$ within $17$ of $0$ but not actually equal to $0$, we have $vert0over x-0vert<epsilon$.
A reasonable question at this point is why we define limits this way. Ultimately that's a question that deserves a serious answer, but very briefly the point is that we're interested in what $f$ "ought to be" at $a$, not what it literally is. Both the derivative and the integral give great examples of this: in each case, we really want to divide by zero but that gives nonsense, so instead we look at what happens when the change in $x$ or the width of our rectangles gets really close to zero without actually being zero. This also gives a nice spin on continuity: intuitively, a function is continuous if it always is what it ought to be.
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
No, both those limits are indeed defined and equal to zero.
The multivariable context is adding unnecessary "noise" here. Consider the simpler expression $$lim_xrightarrow 00over x,$$ which already captures what's going on.
Remember the precise definition of a limit. Colloquially, we often say something like "$lim_xrightarrow af(x)=L$ iff I can get $f$ to be as close as I want to $L$ just by requiring that $x$ be sufficiently close to $a$." However, this misses a very important point which is explicit in the precise formal definition: $$lim_xrightarrow af(x)=Liff forall epsilon>0exists delta>0forall x((colorred0<vert x-avert<delta)implies (vert f(x)-Lvert<epsilon)).$$ Note the "$0<$" clause in the left hand side: what this says is that we ignore the specific behavior of $f$ at exactly $a$.
This is why $lim_xrightarrow 00over x=0$, despite the bad behavior when $x$ is exactly $0$: for any $epsilon>0$, let $delta=17$ (say); then it's easy to check that for any $x$ within $17$ of $0$ but not actually equal to $0$, we have $vert0over x-0vert<epsilon$.
A reasonable question at this point is why we define limits this way. Ultimately that's a question that deserves a serious answer, but very briefly the point is that we're interested in what $f$ "ought to be" at $a$, not what it literally is. Both the derivative and the integral give great examples of this: in each case, we really want to divide by zero but that gives nonsense, so instead we look at what happens when the change in $x$ or the width of our rectangles gets really close to zero without actually being zero. This also gives a nice spin on continuity: intuitively, a function is continuous if it always is what it ought to be.
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
No, both those limits are indeed defined and equal to zero.
The multivariable context is adding unnecessary "noise" here. Consider the simpler expression $$lim_xrightarrow 00over x,$$ which already captures what's going on.
Remember the precise definition of a limit. Colloquially, we often say something like "$lim_xrightarrow af(x)=L$ iff I can get $f$ to be as close as I want to $L$ just by requiring that $x$ be sufficiently close to $a$." However, this misses a very important point which is explicit in the precise formal definition: $$lim_xrightarrow af(x)=Liff forall epsilon>0exists delta>0forall x((colorred0<vert x-avert<delta)implies (vert f(x)-Lvert<epsilon)).$$ Note the "$0<$" clause in the left hand side: what this says is that we ignore the specific behavior of $f$ at exactly $a$.
This is why $lim_xrightarrow 00over x=0$, despite the bad behavior when $x$ is exactly $0$: for any $epsilon>0$, let $delta=17$ (say); then it's easy to check that for any $x$ within $17$ of $0$ but not actually equal to $0$, we have $vert0over x-0vert<epsilon$.
A reasonable question at this point is why we define limits this way. Ultimately that's a question that deserves a serious answer, but very briefly the point is that we're interested in what $f$ "ought to be" at $a$, not what it literally is. Both the derivative and the integral give great examples of this: in each case, we really want to divide by zero but that gives nonsense, so instead we look at what happens when the change in $x$ or the width of our rectangles gets really close to zero without actually being zero. This also gives a nice spin on continuity: intuitively, a function is continuous if it always is what it ought to be.
No, both those limits are indeed defined and equal to zero.
The multivariable context is adding unnecessary "noise" here. Consider the simpler expression $$lim_xrightarrow 00over x,$$ which already captures what's going on.
Remember the precise definition of a limit. Colloquially, we often say something like "$lim_xrightarrow af(x)=L$ iff I can get $f$ to be as close as I want to $L$ just by requiring that $x$ be sufficiently close to $a$." However, this misses a very important point which is explicit in the precise formal definition: $$lim_xrightarrow af(x)=Liff forall epsilon>0exists delta>0forall x((colorred0<vert x-avert<delta)implies (vert f(x)-Lvert<epsilon)).$$ Note the "$0<$" clause in the left hand side: what this says is that we ignore the specific behavior of $f$ at exactly $a$.
This is why $lim_xrightarrow 00over x=0$, despite the bad behavior when $x$ is exactly $0$: for any $epsilon>0$, let $delta=17$ (say); then it's easy to check that for any $x$ within $17$ of $0$ but not actually equal to $0$, we have $vert0over x-0vert<epsilon$.
A reasonable question at this point is why we define limits this way. Ultimately that's a question that deserves a serious answer, but very briefly the point is that we're interested in what $f$ "ought to be" at $a$, not what it literally is. Both the derivative and the integral give great examples of this: in each case, we really want to divide by zero but that gives nonsense, so instead we look at what happens when the change in $x$ or the width of our rectangles gets really close to zero without actually being zero. This also gives a nice spin on continuity: intuitively, a function is continuous if it always is what it ought to be.
edited Aug 2 at 22:21
answered Aug 2 at 22:15
Noah Schweber
110k9138259
110k9138259
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Indeed, $lim_limits(0,y)to (0,0) frac 03y^4 = 0$ since for all $y$ in the neighborhood of $0, f(0,y) < epsilon$
However that is not sufficient for $lim_limits(x,y)to (0,0) frac x^2y^2x^4+3y^4$ . Because
$lim_limits(y,y)to (0,0) = frac y^44y^4 = frac 14.$
If the limit exists, it must be have the same value (be within $epsilon$ of it at least) for all $x,y$ in the neighborhood.
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Indeed, $lim_limits(0,y)to (0,0) frac 03y^4 = 0$ since for all $y$ in the neighborhood of $0, f(0,y) < epsilon$
However that is not sufficient for $lim_limits(x,y)to (0,0) frac x^2y^2x^4+3y^4$ . Because
$lim_limits(y,y)to (0,0) = frac y^44y^4 = frac 14.$
If the limit exists, it must be have the same value (be within $epsilon$ of it at least) for all $x,y$ in the neighborhood.
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Indeed, $lim_limits(0,y)to (0,0) frac 03y^4 = 0$ since for all $y$ in the neighborhood of $0, f(0,y) < epsilon$
However that is not sufficient for $lim_limits(x,y)to (0,0) frac x^2y^2x^4+3y^4$ . Because
$lim_limits(y,y)to (0,0) = frac y^44y^4 = frac 14.$
If the limit exists, it must be have the same value (be within $epsilon$ of it at least) for all $x,y$ in the neighborhood.
Indeed, $lim_limits(0,y)to (0,0) frac 03y^4 = 0$ since for all $y$ in the neighborhood of $0, f(0,y) < epsilon$
However that is not sufficient for $lim_limits(x,y)to (0,0) frac x^2y^2x^4+3y^4$ . Because
$lim_limits(y,y)to (0,0) = frac y^44y^4 = frac 14.$
If the limit exists, it must be have the same value (be within $epsilon$ of it at least) for all $x,y$ in the neighborhood.
answered Aug 2 at 22:14
Doug M
39k31748
39k31748
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
-1
down vote
Both limit
$$beginalign
lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac03y^4=0 qquad lim_(x,0) to (0,0) frac0x^4=0
endalign$$
are correct since the function $f(x,y)$ is identically zero along the trajectories with either $x=0$ or $y=0$.
In other words, what we cannot consider is $x=y=0$ at the same time but all the trajectories with either $x=0$ or $y=0$ are admissible and consistent with the definition of limit.
To clarify better that point see also the related Why are we allowed to cancel fractions in limits?
1
This is not answering the actual question, introduced in bold at the end of the OP: 'So my question is: are these limits [...] really equal to zero? Shouldn't they be indeterminate, given that the variable on the denominator approaches zero?"
– Clement C.
Aug 2 at 22:16
@ClementC. The answer was already contained in the point $$x=0 implies fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4=0$$ Moreover I've added a supplementary comment at the end to better aswer the main question.
– gimusi
Aug 2 at 22:19
add a comment |Â
up vote
-1
down vote
Both limit
$$beginalign
lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac03y^4=0 qquad lim_(x,0) to (0,0) frac0x^4=0
endalign$$
are correct since the function $f(x,y)$ is identically zero along the trajectories with either $x=0$ or $y=0$.
In other words, what we cannot consider is $x=y=0$ at the same time but all the trajectories with either $x=0$ or $y=0$ are admissible and consistent with the definition of limit.
To clarify better that point see also the related Why are we allowed to cancel fractions in limits?
1
This is not answering the actual question, introduced in bold at the end of the OP: 'So my question is: are these limits [...] really equal to zero? Shouldn't they be indeterminate, given that the variable on the denominator approaches zero?"
– Clement C.
Aug 2 at 22:16
@ClementC. The answer was already contained in the point $$x=0 implies fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4=0$$ Moreover I've added a supplementary comment at the end to better aswer the main question.
– gimusi
Aug 2 at 22:19
add a comment |Â
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
Both limit
$$beginalign
lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac03y^4=0 qquad lim_(x,0) to (0,0) frac0x^4=0
endalign$$
are correct since the function $f(x,y)$ is identically zero along the trajectories with either $x=0$ or $y=0$.
In other words, what we cannot consider is $x=y=0$ at the same time but all the trajectories with either $x=0$ or $y=0$ are admissible and consistent with the definition of limit.
To clarify better that point see also the related Why are we allowed to cancel fractions in limits?
Both limit
$$beginalign
lim_(0,y) to (0,0) frac03y^4=0 qquad lim_(x,0) to (0,0) frac0x^4=0
endalign$$
are correct since the function $f(x,y)$ is identically zero along the trajectories with either $x=0$ or $y=0$.
In other words, what we cannot consider is $x=y=0$ at the same time but all the trajectories with either $x=0$ or $y=0$ are admissible and consistent with the definition of limit.
To clarify better that point see also the related Why are we allowed to cancel fractions in limits?
edited Aug 3 at 9:28
answered Aug 2 at 22:14
gimusi
63.8k73480
63.8k73480
1
This is not answering the actual question, introduced in bold at the end of the OP: 'So my question is: are these limits [...] really equal to zero? Shouldn't they be indeterminate, given that the variable on the denominator approaches zero?"
– Clement C.
Aug 2 at 22:16
@ClementC. The answer was already contained in the point $$x=0 implies fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4=0$$ Moreover I've added a supplementary comment at the end to better aswer the main question.
– gimusi
Aug 2 at 22:19
add a comment |Â
1
This is not answering the actual question, introduced in bold at the end of the OP: 'So my question is: are these limits [...] really equal to zero? Shouldn't they be indeterminate, given that the variable on the denominator approaches zero?"
– Clement C.
Aug 2 at 22:16
@ClementC. The answer was already contained in the point $$x=0 implies fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4=0$$ Moreover I've added a supplementary comment at the end to better aswer the main question.
– gimusi
Aug 2 at 22:19
1
1
This is not answering the actual question, introduced in bold at the end of the OP: 'So my question is: are these limits [...] really equal to zero? Shouldn't they be indeterminate, given that the variable on the denominator approaches zero?"
– Clement C.
Aug 2 at 22:16
This is not answering the actual question, introduced in bold at the end of the OP: 'So my question is: are these limits [...] really equal to zero? Shouldn't they be indeterminate, given that the variable on the denominator approaches zero?"
– Clement C.
Aug 2 at 22:16
@ClementC. The answer was already contained in the point $$x=0 implies fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4=0$$ Moreover I've added a supplementary comment at the end to better aswer the main question.
– gimusi
Aug 2 at 22:19
@ClementC. The answer was already contained in the point $$x=0 implies fracx^2 y^2x^4 + 3y^4=0$$ Moreover I've added a supplementary comment at the end to better aswer the main question.
– gimusi
Aug 2 at 22:19
add a comment |Â
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Well they approach to $0$, but aren't $0$, what you should have written in the next step is that e.g. $lim 0/3y^4 = lim 0 = 0$
– Nameless
Aug 3 at 9:37